Yesterday I received a phone call from a fellow who said he had found our website “while on his lunch break” and had a few questions about the Bible. He wondered if I would talk to him.
I was happy to oblige and he started out by asking me how Jesus could be God based on his grasp of John 17:3. This was not a text I had heard used before to debunk the deity of Christ, so it took a few minutes for me to get my head around what he was saying. Eventually, it became clear and I started to answer.
Within a few seconds he was cutting me off, getting ever more aggressive and displaying the fact that these were not honest questions – he was out for blood.
And I took the bait.
At one point I uttered the phrase, “Well, having studied Greek for 7 years in college and seminary...” I recall thinking that such a profound fact would back him down in a hurry. What a fool was I.
That phrase came back over and again as he, quite honestly, ran circles around me in the Greek text.
Now, it is not that he was right. He was quite wrong. But he was an excellent debater and having gained the upper hand he was not going to let go. I was red meat in a lion’s cage. I wilted. He won.
This surprising event taught me two things: First, I was brought to face the massive amount of pride that still resides in my heart. Second, I am still very weak and cowardly when going toe-to-toe with a spiritual interlocutor.
If he had taped our conversation, you would have heard my voice begin to shake a little and my arguments get increasingly fuzzy and bland. I was no Luther! I am glad the Lord brought this event into my life... but it has not been easy to bounce back. I got off the phone a whipped puppy.
I tried to move the “conversation” another direction, inviting “Nelson” from “somewhere in America” to send me an email with his questions to which I would respond later. Strangely, even though he “found me on the internet” he did not have email.
My guess is that Nelson is a kind of web-prowling Jehovah’s Witness. He has his ducks in order and he likes to stick it to Trinitarians. That is fine. Well, it is not very loving, but I get the picture.
One thing it made me consider was my own evangelism methods. Do the folks I speak to of Christ feel my genuine love for them? Or, do they feel like I am out to score a few points for my side? I know what I want them to feel.
Anyway, Nelson, should you be flipping through the internet today and stumble across my account of our phone meeting, you are more than welcome to fill in any blanks and carry on with your questions here. Like I said to you on the phone, I think all your statements are answerable, but I am just not very good at answering them off the cuff. It seems reasonable to expect that you might read this, since you were on our church website and that links here... so my offer is a real and genuine one!
To the rest of you, I suppose my purpose in blogging this has been to remind us all to not rely on our own strength and wisdom. We can do nothing apart from Jesus Christ, the all-glorious second member of the Tri-une Godhead, who strengthens us.
My pastor took a theological thrashing from a Jehovah's Witness. I need to find a new church...
ReplyDeleteBut in all seriousness, thanks for writing about this. I think it's a great reminder that a) we are dependent on Christ and b) we don't need to feel like we have all the answers all the time!
There are always lessons to learn and your account reminds me of a couple:
ReplyDelete1) Never confuse the ability of someone to debate with the rightness of his position. 2)Never confuse the inability of someone to debate with the wrongness of his position 3) Confront those who bait you, "Hey, you're just out trolling for a catch aren't you!" 4) Remember that God chooses the things that are not to bring to nothing the things that are. You do not know what this conversation might reap yet. That is my particular field of expertise because as you know, I'm the biggest "are not" there is. This whole debate debacle could have been worse - it could have been me!
Thanks for sharing that encounter, Paul. It speaks volumes of your humility.
ReplyDeleteThe words of 1 Corinthians 1:18ff are apropos here. "Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? ... God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."
I assume the folks of which the Apostle Paul wrote these words could run circles around any of us in Greek. Yet it is the (Trinitarian) "message preached" that has power to save, not debating skills, not Greek textual skills, not blood-thirsty apologetes (is that a word?) of false religion systems.
I will join you in praying for Nelson.
Thanks for you honesty, this was a blessing for me as a young pastor to read...
ReplyDeletecheers from england..
Adam
It still would have been good to win by demonstrating the folly of his arguments (in love).
ReplyDeleteA good e-mail discussion is, in my opinion, a better way to get to the heart of the matter because as you said, some questions are hard to answer "off the cuff". I myself much prefer to ponder the question at hand before answering rather than have to provide rapid-fire replies. That works for both sides, so I think in the end you both can go deeper.
ReplyDeletePaul, it is good to read this story. To hear of someone far more educated in, knowledgeable of, and skilfull with the Scriptures than I am "lose" a Biblical argument reminds me to remain humble in discussions and debates, and seek the Lord to be strengthened in weakness.
ReplyDeletePerhaps you could write about some experiences where you have "won" arguments as well.
Actually think about it, if God=Jesus then the ransom never really happened, or you don't really believe in the ransom as it happened so how can you actually be truely saved then with this belief. Jesus is a god that died for our sins so we could be saved, he actually ceased to exist for a short time. But he is not the Almighty God who created him.
ReplyDeleteThink about it.
"Then you'll be able to see where he errs and have more time to gently correct his errors in writing."
ReplyDeleteAnd, should you have made a mistake in the discussion or debate, admit that you are incorrect, and fix it. (Thus establishing credibility.)
"Jesus is a god that died for our sins so we could be saved, he actually ceased to exist for a short time."
Only if death is a ceasing of existence. You presuppose yourself to be right. If death is simply the severing of body and soul or some such, and the simply goes someplace else then it never ceased to exist.
Anyway, I'll let the pros tackle the rest of that.
Sincerely in Christ,
Hidden One.
Hidden one said:
ReplyDelete"Only if death is a ceasing of existence. You presuppose yourself to be right. If death is simply the severing of body and soul or some such, and the simply goes someplace else then it never ceased to exist."
This is a Non sequitur, as the fact IS the BIble says God CANNOT DIE. Hab 1:12. So therefore it does not matter HOW you **define*** the word "die".. God cant do it. Thus, the Jesus that DIED cannot be God.
Besides, your Jesus is not God anyway, he is a person *OF* God. God is a triune being according to trinitarian language.. he is NOT THE God...
Typical trinitarian confusion. Sad when you make the word of God invalid with your silly traditions.
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